Conversation
between Master Philip Lapleau and Master Keng-Yung
March
17, 1984
in Taipei
Brief introduction:
During a trip visiting Taiwan, Master Philip Kapleau had a conversation
with Master Keng-Yun (Lee is the surname), and the conversation is recorded
in the following
Kapleau:
May I ask about Mr. Lee's history of studying Buhdism and the background
of life?
Lee:
I am a veteran. I seldom have close relationship with other venerated
ones of Buddhism. Regarding why studying Zen? Because I felt that a human
being should understand the meaning of life. What people are actually
living for? Where is the worth of life? Is life illusionary and nonpermanent?
Or is there an aspect of eternity?
In the opinions of philosophers, there is Unitarianism and Dualism. But
truth is impossible to have many types. Then what is the truth of universe
anyhow? And furthermore what is the relationship between the truth of
universe and each individual?
For trying to break through these questions, I had also consulted many
venerable monks. But these venerable monks besides teaching me to cordially
chant the name of Buddha; also did not have preached whatsoever. I could
then only try to understand it personally by reading the scriptures of
Zen school from the Sutras of Buddhism.
It is only fair to say that I am an adorer of Zen, but I cannot say that
what can I represent. In these forty years, I have turned Zen into being
the sole interest of life, and not being one of the interests. Hence the
direction of my endeavor is to turn Zen into being the merit of life,
instead of being the investigation of knowledge or theory. Which also
means to turn it into the entirety of personality, instead of being part
of knowledge. This is the background of my efforts in these decades.
Kapleau:
In your past forty years, have you already found the secret of life that
you have been looking for?
Lee:
The secret that I have found can be expressed in a few words, i.e. "All
sentient beings are originally being Buddha."
Kapleau:
May I ask what is the origin of Buddha?
Lee:
The origin of Buddha, in terms of the terminology of Buddha - that is
the enlightenment of life.
Kapleau:
Is life itself being mystical or ordinary?
Lee:
Life is the most ordinary, the most practical, nothing mystical about.
Kapleau:
Can you give some examples to show what is the natural way of life?
Lee:
Why would people live unpleasantly? It is because he had lost the original,
natural and liberated mentality. The original is eternal; truth must be
original. As long as one could recover up to approximating the original
mentality (impossible to be exactly the same), his life would become very
pleasant.
Kapleau:
If you were going to die now, what would you do?
Lee:
I want to add one word first: At present, the mentality that enables us
to do conversation is not the original mentality; instead, it is similar
to the rendered functions of a computer after being filled with data.
Once I had left the current life, would return to the original state of
life.
Kapleau:
After returning to your origin, what kind of mentality is it like?
Lee:
Ordinary, I would never discuss this question. But since Master Kapleau
coming from afar, I could talk about it.
After having washed and brushed clean the polluting stuff that was originally
not being existent in the mind; when he is living in this societ, it is
still only a conditional nirvana; instead of being absolutely fulfilled.
No matter how good a practitioner Master Kapleau you are, master Kapleau,
this life is still not being absolutely fulfilled. Only after we have
got rid of the body and returned to the original state of life, would
then be absolutely fullfilled.
Here I would like to modify a word of Dicare, " I think, hence I
exist." Once people return to the original state of life, he would
no longer think, instead, it is, " I aware, hence I exist."
That self-awareness has only brightness. If Master Kapleau had ever read
the " Heart Sutra," the words of the "Heart Sutra,"
is the description for those who have returned to their original state
of life.
Kapleau:
Descartes claims, " I think hence I exist;" I felt " I
work hence I exist." What is Mr. Lee's opinion?
Lee:
As to life itself, no matter whether it thinks or not; works or not, it
would always be there. I want to repeat one word: the "I" that
is doing the thinking is not the original "I"; it is the secondary
"I." The original one would not do any thinking. The "I"
who is working is also not the original "I"; it is the "I"
of Karma.
Kapleau:
Can you reveal the true "I"?
Lee:
If you want me to reveal, I can only say that: please you take a look.
Kapleau:
May I ask that
could Mr. Lee show the original face before being born by the parents?
Lee:
You sit right in front s me; should feel it very clearly.
Kapleau:
That is true, but are you sure that you have seen the original face before
being born by the parents?
Lee:
Surely I do.
Kapleau:
Do you believe that Buddhism is helpful to the trouble of the world? If
it is helpful, then where could it be of help?
Lee:
Everybody's mind could only be similar to each other, not being completely
identical, hence everybody's mentality is different either.
People of the past once said, "The differences in people's mind is
like each individual's face." Because the mentality of each individual
is different, hence each individual would feel differently.
One's mistakes, correctness, merriness, and frustrations are essentially
a matter of mentality; and are neither a matter of knowledge nor a matter
of idea.
Having certain types of mentality will result in certain types of feelings
and thus would come up with certain type of idea. Once he has recovered
his mentality to a state that is correct, being very harmonious, and conforming
to the "Middle Way," he would then no longer have any frustrations,
sins and mistakes. This world would then become a real pure land; without
dirt of mind, without frustrations and sins.
Kapleau:
How could we recover back to our original mentality?
Lee:
Have to rely
on Zen.
Kapleau:
What is Mr. Lee's opinion about Buddhism in Taiwan?
Lee:
I had always been in the Army and seldom get in touch with the people
of Buddhism; may be have a incorrect opinion: If dividing Buddhism into
two different area, for Buddhism in Taiwan, Buddhism study is very prosperous,
but Buddhadharma is still not enough.
Kapleau:
Yes. Ordinary people would always treat Buddhism study as a research topic
in cultures, and lack of practice. We should work more on practice.
Lee:
There is one thing I want to add to Master Kapleau's words. The Buddhadharma
that I have been talking about has nothing to do with language and words.
It has neither theory nor logic relationships. It is simply a way to enable
the enlightenment of life. and regretfully, I feel that there is too little
Buddhadharma in Taiwan.
Kapleau:
The first precept of the "Five Precepts" of Buddhism is killing
lives. According to Mr. Lee's experience in military service, what do
you think about killing lives?
Lee:
If one really discover the "Non-dualistic of the self and the others."
Which means when there is no difference between oneself and the others,
then would not kill lives. If not having reached this step, he would kill.
Kapleau:
Are you a vegetarian?
Lee:
I am not a vegetarian.
Kapleau:
If you are not a vegetarian, then could you see the "Non-dualistic
of the self and the others?
Lee:
Very clearly!
Kapleau:
According to the meaning of this word, has Mr. Lee already got enlightened?
Lee:
Exactly. What I want to add is: ordinary people would usually not admit
it; why would I dare to admit? Because: enlightenment is everybody's duty.
Nothing special. Everybody should get enlightened. If not asking for enlightenment
it would then be personally willing to be covered up.
Kapleau:
Yes, we should get enlightened. For the sake of individual, for the sake
of the mankind, we are obliged to get enlightened. But we should not say
that, " I have already got enlightened."
Lee:
Your word is quite right. Because: I talked about getting enlightened
is because you had asked me. If you had not asked me, I would never have
said it. Moreover, when I was answering this question, I was very troubled.
Because Chinese people are very modest, how could I say that I have got
enlightened?
But if I said that I did not get enlightened, then would somewhat be undermining
myself, nor being honest to other people. Therefore I would just go straight
ahead to say that that I have got enlightened.
Why did I say so? It is because you have so asked. Why did I add that
getting enlightened is not a big deal? Because I think getting enlightened
has nothing mystical about.
Kapleau:
What kind of spiritual condition do you have when you were getting enlightened?
Lee:
I must say, most people would think that getting enlightened means finding
something mystical, having something special, or finding something big
theory.
None of these! An enlightened person absolutely has nothing special, nor
finding out whatever big theory. Because: The truth is ordinary and general.
Therefore, getting enlightened is not something that is a groundbreaking
big event.
This can be explained by separating it into two pieces. First, when I
got enlightened, I found that me and other people are not two things;
it is just like what Buddhism has said, "Non-dualistic of the self
and the others, and the equality of sentient beings and Buddha."
Second, what I had found is only the eternal phase of life.
Kapleau:
You have said very well, but could you use language to describe the experience
of being getting enlightened?
Lee:
I would now ask you one word as my reply. When you are sitting in front
of me and talking, and when you are talking with someone else; what is
the difference in mental felling?
Kapleau:
I feel that there is no difference at all between you and me; nor is there
any difference between me and each of you who sits here.
Lee:
Since you have said so, your words would exactly be my reply.
Kapleau:
There is a proverb saying, "Since the ancient era, originally there
is nothing exists," is it right?
Lee:
Surely it is. May I ask master Kapleau: What is the opinion about Zen
of ordinary people in America?
Kapleau:
I cannot represent the opinion of all American. I would make some simple
comments only based on the opinions about Zen of me, and my students.
Zen has very large attraction force in the intellectuals of the United
States. Any idea, as long as it can be practically utilized, and would
result in some effects, would be good.
The basic spirit of Zen is something simple, intuitive and practical.
It is just like Mr. Lee said, "Zen is not a kind of theory; instead,
it is the way of life of the mankind."
During 1960-1970, Zen used to be very popular, especially in the younger
generation. Zen is still highly welcomed in the United States, but there
are more elder people who do practice than the younger ones.
Zen master usually use rebuffing instead of praising. Like saying: "Bodhidharma
is a toothless monk," or saying, "Having chanted the name of
Buddha once, washing the mouth three days." And can this word be
said to Jesus?
It means neither Bodhidharma nor Buddha has any difference with us. Only
they have accomplished their practice, therefore did not praise them highly.
This also means the so-called paying respect is being not respectful;
not paying respect is being respectful.
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